Wednesday, December 04, 2013

Chronic Wasting Disease CWD and Land Value concerns ?

Chronic Wasting Disease CWD and Land Value concerns ?

 
Greetings,

 
maybe it’s just me, but with this particular incident, i.e. the Almond Deer (Buckhorn Flats) Farm in Wisconsin, it seems to me you can make money off a CWD infected farm, by holding out and selling out to the state, at the taxpayers expense.

 

the farm appraised out at $371,000 (I don’t know if that appraisal included the fact the farm had the highest CWD rate in North American, at the time of the appraisal on record?), and the state gave them $465,000 for the place.

 

looks like a profit of $94,000. so, seems like having a CWD infected farm, did not hurt these folks at the Buckhorn flats.

 

I wonder what the Brakkes will get in Iowa for their CWD farm, and what amount the taxpayers might half to pay for that ???

 

 

SUBJECT: LAND ACQUISITION AND PROHIBITION OF NATURE -BASED OUTDOOR ACTIVITIES - STATEWIDE

 

WILDLIFE HABITAT PROGRAM - PORTAGE COUNTY

 

FOR: MARCH 2011 BOARD MEETING

 

TO BE PRESENTED BY: Richard Steffes

 

SUMMARY: The Department has obtained an agreement to purchase 80 acres of land from Patricia Casey for $465,000 for the Statewide Wildlife Habitat program, in Portage County, The item is being submitted because the price exceeds the appraised value of $371,000 and because the Department will prohibit Nature-Based Outdoor Activities on the land.

 

The property is located in south central Portage County about 12 miles southeast of Plover in the Town of Almond. The property, which includes a single family residence, a metal building, and a storage shed, was operated as a deer farm until 2006 at which time it was closed down because of an outbreak of chronic wasting disease (CWD). All the deer in the operation were destroyed and the operation has stood vacant for the last 5 years per U.S. Department of Agriculture requirements. During this time and until May 24, 20 II, the fences around this facility must be maintained and the premise cannot be used as a deer farm, though other animals such as cattle or horses would be permitted. After May 24, all such restrictions will expire. This site, known as the Hall Farm, had the highest prevalence of CWD positive deer recorded at any deer farm in North America.

 

Based on available science, the Department believes that there is an unacceptable potential risk of exposure to CWD causing prions to wild cervids in this area should the premise fencing be removed. To minimize this risk, the Department believes that the fences should remain intact and in place until science can demonstrate that there is no longer any potential risk. After extensive consideration of several options, the Department maintains that the purchase and subsequent management of the property and fences is the only realistic option.

 

The Department proposes to prohibit all public Use of the property in order to ensure confinement and control of contaminated soils and limit any potential spread of Chronic Wasting Disease from the property to surrounding lands and wild deer populations and to allow for research of prions and prion related diseases such as Chronic Wasting Disease. The property is currently surrounded by a deer fence and removal of that fence to allow public use, or public use of any form inside the fenced area would be incompatible with the primary purpose for acquiring the property. The Department has determined that it is necessary to prohibit all public access on the site to accommodate the Department's primary purpose for the acquisition and its intended use of the property for research and wildlife management.

 

Acquisition of this property will minimize any potential risk to local cervids from the CWD causing prions that may exist within the fenced area. The Department will consider sale of the house at a later date if local zoning can be modified for a lot size that would not contain contaminated soil. State ownership will allow the Department to maintain the deer proof fence, thereby protecting wild deer from CWD infection from the contaminated soil on this former deer farm.

 

RECOMMENDATION: That the Board approve the purchase of 80 acres of land for $465,000 for the Statewide Wildlife Habitat Program in Portage County and approve the restrictions on public use of the site.

 

 SUMMARY: The Department has obtained an agreement to purchase 80 acres of land from Patricia Casey for $465,000 for the Statewide Wildlife Habitat program, in Portage Country. The iten is being submitted because the price EXCEEDS the appraised value of $371,000 and because the Department will PROHIBIT NATURE-BASED OUTDOOR ACTIVITIES ON THE LAND.

 

The property is located in south central Portage County about 12 miles southeast of Plover in the Town of Almond. The property, which includes a single family residence, a metal building, and a storage shed, was operated as a deer farm until 2006 at which time it was closed down because of an outbreak of chronic wasting disease (CWD). All the deer in the operation were destroyed and the operation has stood vacant for the last 5 years per U.S. Department of Agriculture requirements. During this time and until May 24, 2011, the fences around this facility must be maintained and the premise cannot be used as a deer farm, _though other animals such as cattle or horses would be permitted_. AFTER MAY 24, ALL SUCH RESTRICTIONS WILL EXPIRE. This site, known as the Hall Farm, HAD THE HIGHEST PREVALENCE OF CWD POSITIVE DEER RECORDED AT ANY DEER FARM IN NORTH AMERICA. ...

 


 

 

how many states have $465,000., and can quarantine and purchase there from, each cwd said infected farm, but how many states can afford this for all the cwd infected cervid game ranch type farms ???

 

 

Tuesday, December 20, 2011

 

CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE CWD WISCONSIN Almond Deer (Buckhorn Flats) Farm Update DECEMBER 2011

 

The CWD infection rate was nearly 80%, the highest ever in a North American captive herd. RECOMMENDATION: That the Board approve the purchase of 80 acres of land for $465,000 for the Statewide Wildlife Habitat Program in Portage County and approve the restrictions on public use of the site.

 

SUMMARY:

 


 

 

Despite the five year premise plan and site decontamination, The WI DNR has concerns over the bioavailability of infectious prions at this site to wild white-tail deer should these fences be removed. Current research indicates that prions can persist in soil for a minimum of 3 years. However, Georgsson et al. (2006) concluded that prions that produced scrapie disease in sheep remained bioavailable and infectious for at least 16 years in natural Icelandic environments, most likely in contaminated soil. Additionally, the authors reported that from 1978-2004, scrapie recurred on 33 sheep farms, of which 9 recurrences occurred 14-21 years after initial culling and subsequent restocking efforts; these findings further emphasize the effect of environmental contamination on sustaining TSE infectivity and that long-term persistence of prions in soils may be substantially greater than previously thought. Evidence of environmental transmission also was documented in a Colorado research facility where mule deer became infected with CWD in two of three paddocks where infected deer carcasses had decomposed on site 1.8 years earlier, and in one of three paddocks where infected deer had last resided 2.2 years earlier (Miller et al. 2004).

 

snip...

 

Environmental contamination has been identified as a possible cause of recurrence of CWD-infection on elk farms in Canada, when elk were reintroduced one year after depopulation, clean up and disinfection. To date, 8 CWD infected farms remain under CFIA (government of Canada) quarantine indefinitely and will not be allowed to repopulate with cervids until there is additional research on detection of prions in soils and better understanding of the duration of persistence of disease-causing prion post depopulation of CWD-infected cervid farms (Douglas, CFIA, pers. comm.).

 

Furthermore, the likely transmission of CWD via soil is corroborated by recent studies showing long-term persistence of prions in soil, that prion binds to soil components with high affinity and is not easily removed by water, and that oral prion disease transmission may be enhanced when bound to soil (Johnson et al. 2006, Schramm et al. 2006, Johnson et al. 2007). These findings suggest that soil may harbor more TSE infectivity and contribute more significantly to TSE transmission than previously recognized. These studies highlight the concerns about the risk of transmission via environmental contamination beyond five years and that efforts should be made to prevent freeranging deer from coming into contact with these contaminated facilities.

 

SNIP...

 

CHAPTER TWO

 

OBJECTIVE FOR PROPERTY

 

Maintain the Perimeter Deer Fence

 


 


 

 

Infectious agent of sheep scrapie may persist in the environment for at least 16 years

 

Gudmundur Georgsson,1 Sigurdur Sigurdarson2 and Paul Brown3

 

Correspondence Gudmundur Georgsson ggeorgs@hi.is 1Institute for Experimental Pathology, University of Iceland, Keldur v/vesturlandsveg, IS-112 Reykjavı´k, Iceland 2Laboratory of the Chief Veterinary Officer, Keldur, Iceland 3Bethesda, Maryland, USA Received 7 March 2006 Accepted 6 August 2006

 

In 1978, a rigorous programme was implemented to stop the spread of, and subsequently eradicate, sheep scrapie in Iceland. Affected flocks were culled, premises were disinfected and, after 2–3 years, restocked with lambs from scrapie-free areas. Between 1978 and 2004, scrapie recurred on 33 farms. Nine of these recurrences occurred 14–21 years after culling, apparently as the result of environmental contamination, but outside entry could not always be absolutely excluded. Of special interest was one farm with a small, completely self-contained flock where scrapie recurred 18 years after culling, 2 years after some lambs had been housed in an old sheephouse that had never been disinfected. Epidemiological investigation established with near certitude that the disease had not been introduced from the outside and it is concluded that the agent may have persisted in the old sheep-house for at least 16 years.

 

snip...

 

Scrapie is not known to infect humans directly; however, it is highly likely that it did infect cattle (as BSE), which in turn infected humans (variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease). Such species-barrier crossings could be dangerous, should it be discovered that BSE has been transmitted to and maintained in genetically diverse European sheep breeds (Asante et al., 2002). At least one goat (in France) has contracted BSE in the field (Eloit et al., 2005) and it has recently been shown that BSE can also be transmitted naturally to healthy sheep from sheep infected experimentally with BSE (Bellworthy et al., 2005). It is to be expected that the agent of BSE, which shows chemical and physical resistance equal to or greater than that of any other tested strain of TSE (Taylor et al., 1994; Schreuder et al., 1998; Cardone et al., 2006), may persist for at least as long in the environment as the scrapie agent. The burial of thousands of sheep and cattle during a recent footand- mouth disease outbreak in the UK, and possible illegal burial of BSE cattle, is thus of concern for public health.

 


 

 

BSE INQUIRY

 

THE LANCET VOL 337: FEB 2, 1991

 

Survival of Scrapie virus after 3 years interment

 

Paul Brown D. Carleton Gajdusek

 


 

 

Thursday, February 17, 2011

 

Environmental Sources of Scrapie Prions

 

SNIP...

 

Some unofficial information from a source on the inside looking out -

 

Confidential!!!!

 

As early as 1992-3 there had been long studies conducted on small pastures containing scrapie infected sheep at the sheep research station associated with the Neuropathogenesis Unit in Edinburgh, Scotland. Whether these are documented...I don't know. But personal recounts both heard and recorded in a daily journal indicate that leaving the pastures free and replacing the topsoil completely at least 2 feet of thickness each year for SEVEN years....and then when very clean (proven scrapie free) sheep were placed on these small pastures.... the new sheep also broke out with scrapie and passed it to offspring. I am not sure that TSE contaminated ground could ever be free of the agent!! A very frightening revelation!!!

 

----------

 

You can take that with however many grains of salt you wish, and we can debate these issues all day long, but the bottom line, this is not rocket-science, all one has to do is some experiments and case studies. But for the life of me, I don't know what they are waiting on?

 

Kind regards,

 

Terry S. Singeltary Sr. Bacliff, Texas USA

 

 

More here:

 


 

 

SEE FULL TEXT ;

 

Thursday, February 17, 2011

 

Environmental Sources of Scrapie Prions

 


 

 

Monday, December 02, 2013

 

WISCONSIN CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE CWD DISCOVERED MARATHON COUNTY HUNTING PRESERVE

 


 

 

Wednesday, August 21, 2013

 

IOWA DNR EMERGENCY CONSENT ORDER IN THE MATTER OF TOM & LINDA BRAKKE D/B/A PINE RIDGE HUNTING LODGE UPDATE AUGUST 21, 2013

 

snip...

 

5. On July 16, 2012, DNR received a notice from the Texas Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Lab ("Texas Vet Lab”) that a sample from an adult male deer killed at Pine Ridge tested presumptively positive for CWD. (DNR has an agreement with the Texas Vet Lab to run these preliminary tests.) Because the Texas Vet Lab found this presumptive positive result, protocols required the sample to be sent to the National Veterinary Services Laboratory ("National Lab”) in Ames, Iowa for final confirmation. On July 18, 2012, the National Lab confirmed the positive CWD result in the deer.

 

6. On July 19, 2012, DNR notified the Brakkes of the positive test by phone. Mr. Brakke was out of state.

 

7. On July 23, 2012, DNR met with the Brakkes to initiate an epidemiological investigation. This investigation would help determine where the infected deer came from and make preliminary assessments about the extent of the exposure. The Brakkes provided information including their herd inventory and photographic evidence of the animals killed on the date the infected deer was killed. Also present at this meeting were representatives from the Iowa Department of Agriculture and Land Stewardship ("IDALS"), the United States Department of Agriculture ("USDA") and the Iowa Whitetail Deer Association, an Iowa non-profit organization. IDALS regulates breeding programs that sometimes populate hunting preserves. USDA regulates interstate transport of captive deer; its veterinarian designated as the Area Veterinarian in Charge would have been involved to determine if the diseased captive deer are or may have been moved through interstate commerce and/or transport.

 

8. Based on information provided by the Brakkes, DNR concluded that captive deer killed on the Hunting Preserve on the same day as the infected deer were located in Florida, New Hampshire, Tennessee and Iowa. Between July 27, 2012 and August 6, 2012, DNR worked with law enforcement officials from those other states to collect samples from the antlers of those deer for DNA testing. These tests would help to identify the origin of the infected deer and verify Brakke's prior documents that the infected deer came from the breeding facility run by the Tom and Rhonda Brakke in Cerro Gordo County, Iowa ("Brakke’s Breeding Facility"). These samples were obtained in a manner to preserve the chain of custody.

 

9. On August 10, 2012, the Wyoming Game and Fish Wildlife Forensic and Fish Health Laboratory ("Wyoming Lab") provided DNR results for the seven specimens provided to it. (DNR has an agreement with the Wyoming Lab to conduct DNA testing.) The results confirmed that the infected deer originated from the Brakke's Breeding Facility.

 

10. On August 13, 2012, DNR notified the Brakkes of the DNA results by telephone. DNR advised the Brakkes that they would need to meet with DNR to develop a plan to address the CWD infection at the Hunting Preserve. DNR would have also been communicating with IDALS consistent with the Plan.

 

11. On September 7, 2012, DNR and the Brakkes executed an agreement ("Agreement") to depopulate the Hunting Preserve by January 31, 2013, and to clean and disinfect the Hunting Preserve. It also contained a general Compliance with Laws provision, which required the Brakkes to comply with all applicable federal, state and local laws and regulations, including without limitation the rules described in 571 Iowa Administrative Code section 115.10 related to the maintenance of a

 

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Page 4 IOWA DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES EMERGENCY ORDER ISSUED TO: TOM AND RHONDA BRAKKE D/B/A PINE RIDGE HUNTING PRESERVE

 

quarantine on the Quarantined Premises and the prohibition of deer movement in or out of the Quarantined Premises.

 

12. The Brakkes depopulated the Hunting Preserve, as specified in the Agreement, from September 10, 2012 to January 31, 2013. As part of this effort, the Brakkes, the staff and their customers killed 199 captive deer and nine captive elk. The DNR obtained 170 CWD samples. (Samples were not taken from fawns and one adult female who was killed in a manner that made sampling impossible.) Of these 199 deer, two additional adult male deer tested positive for CWD. Information provided by the Brakkes confirmed that these two additional deer originated from the Brakke Breeding Facility.

 

13. DNR installed, with the Brakke's permission, an interior electric fence on October 1 and 2, 2012.

 

14. The Brakkes cleaned and disinfected, under DNR supervision, the feeders and ground surrounding the feeders on April 5, 2013.

 

15. On April 26, 2013, the Brakkes hand-delivered a notice to the DNR’s Chief of Law Enforcement Bureau, notifying the DNR that they would no longer operate a hunting preserve on the Quarantined Premises. The Brakkes did not reveal any plans to remove the fence around the Quarantined Premises or to remove the gates to and from the Quarantined Premises in this April 26, 2013 letter.

 

16. On June 3, 2013, DNR became aware that sections of the exterior fence surrounding the Quarantined Premises had been removed and that some, if not all, of the exterior gates to and from the Quarantined Premises were open.

 

17. On June 4, 2013, DNR received reports from the public in the area that four wild deer were observed inside the Quarantined Premises.

 

18. On June 5, 2013, DNR conducted a fence inspection, after gaining approval from surrounding landowners, and confirmed that the fenced had been cut or removed in at least four separate locations; that the fence had degraded and was failing to maintain the enclosure around the Quarantined Premises in at least one area; that at least three gates had been opened; and that deer tracks were visible in and around one of the open areas in the sand on both sides of the fence, evidencing movement of deer into the Quarantined Premises.

 

IV. CONCLUSIONS OF LAW

 

snip...

 

 

Wednesday, August 21, 2013

 

IOWA DNR EMERGENCY CONSENT ORDER IN THE MATTER OF TOM & LINDA BRAKKE D/B/A PINE RIDGE HUNTING LODGE UPDATE AUGUST 21, 2013

 


 

 

The rate of transmission of CWD has been reported to be as high as 30% and can approach 100% among captive animals in endemic areas (Safar et al., 2008). snip... In summary, in endemic areas, there is a medium probability that the soil and surrounding environment is contaminated with CWD prions and in a bioavailable form. In rural areas where CWD has not been reported and deer are present, there is a greater than negligible risk the soil is contaminated with CWD prion. snip... In summary, given the volume of tourists, hunters and servicemen moving between GB and North America, the probability of at least one person travelling to/from a CWD affected area and, in doing so, contaminating their clothing, footwear and/or equipment prior to arriving in GB is greater than negligible. For deer hunters, specifically, the risk is likely to be greater given the increased contact with deer and their environment. However, there is significant uncertainty associated with these estimates. snip... Therefore, it is considered that farmed and park deer may have a higher probability of exposure to CWD transferred to the environment than wild deer given the restricted habitat range and higher frequency of contact with tourists and returning GB residents. snip...

 


 

 

SNIP...SEE ;

 

 

Friday, December 14, 2012

 

DEFRA U.K. What is the risk of Chronic Wasting Disease CWD being introduced into Great Britain? A Qualitative Risk Assessment October 2012

 


 

 

Friday, February 08, 2013

 

*** Behavior of Prions in the Environment: Implications for Prion Biology

 


 

 

Uptake of Prions into Plants

 


 

 

Friday, August 09, 2013

 

***CWD TSE prion, plants, vegetables, and the potential for environmental contamination

 


 

 

PRION2013 CONGRESSIONAL ABSTRACTS CWD

 

 

Thursday, August 08, 2013

 

Characterization of the first case of naturally occurring chronic wasting disease in a captive red deer (Cervus elaphus) in North America

 


 

 

Sunday, September 01, 2013

 

hunting over gut piles and CWD TSE prion disease

 


 

 

Wednesday, September 04, 2013

 

***cwd - cervid captive livestock escapes, loose and on the run in the wild...

 


 

 

Monday, October 07, 2013

 

The importance of localized culling in stabilizing chronic wasting disease prevalence in white-tailed deer populations

 


 

 

Saturday, March 10, 2012

 

CWD, GAME FARMS, urine, feces, soil, lichens, and banned mad cow protein feed CUSTOM MADE for deer and elk

 


 

 

PRION2013 CONGRESSIONAL ABSTRACTS CWD

 

Sunday, August 25, 2013

 

***Chronic Wasting Disease CWD risk factors, humans, domestic cats, blood, and mother to offspring transmission

 


 

 

Sunday, July 21, 2013

 

*** As Chronic Wasting Disease CWD rises in deer herd, what about risk for humans?

 


 

 

Envt.07:

 

Pathological Prion Protein (PrPTSE) in Skeletal Muscles of Farmed and Free Ranging White-Tailed Deer Infected with Chronic Wasting Disease

 

Martin L. Daus,1,† Johanna Breyer,2 Katjs Wagenfuehr,1 Wiebke Wemheuer,2 Achim Thomzig,1 Walter Schulz-Schaeffer2 and Michael Beekes1 1Robert Koch Institut; P24 TSE; Berlin, Germany; 2Department of Neuropathology, Prion and Dementia Research Unit, University Medical Center Göttingen; Göttingen, Germany †Presenting author; Email: dausm@rki.de

 

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) is a contagious, rapidly spreading transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE) occurring in cervids in North America. Despite efficient horizontal transmission of CWD among cervids natural transmission of the disease to other species has not yet been observed. Here, we report a direct biochemical demonstration of pathological prion protein PrPTSE and of PrPTSE-associated seeding activity in skeletal muscles of CWD-infected cervids. The presence of PrPTSE was detected by Western- and postfixed frozen tissue blotting, while the seeding activity of PrPTSE was revealed by protein misfolding cyclic amplification (PMCA). The concentration of PrPTSE in skeletal muscles of CWD-infected WTD was estimated to be approximately 2000- to 10000-fold lower than in brain tissue. Tissue-blot-analyses revealed that PrPTSE was located in muscle- associated nerve fascicles but not, in detectable amounts, in myocytes. ***The presence and seeding activity of PrPTSE in skeletal muscle from CWD-infected cervids suggests prevention of such tissue in the human diet as a precautionary measure for food safety, pending on further clarification of whether CWD may be transmissible to humans.

 


 

 

Thursday, October 10, 2013

 

CJD REPORT 1994 increased risk for consumption of veal and venison and lamb

 


 

 

Sunday, August 11, 2013

 

Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease CJD cases rising North America updated report August 2013

 

Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease CJD cases rising North America with Canada seeing an extreme increase of 48% between 2008 and 2010

 


 

 

Monday, December 02, 2013

 

A parliamentary inquiry has been launched today into the safety of blood, tissue and organ screening following fears that vCJD – the human form of ‘mad cow’ disease – may be being spread by medical procedures

 


 

 

Friday, November 29, 2013

 

Identification of Misfolded Proteins in Body Fluids for the Diagnosis of Prion Diseases

 

International Journal of Cell Biology

 


 

 

The chances of a person or domestic animal contracting CWD are “extremely remote,” Richards said. The possibility can’t be ruled out, however. “One could look at it like a game of chance,” he explained. “The odds (of infection) increase over time because of repeated exposure. That’s one of the downsides of having CWD in free-ranging herds: We’ve got this infectious agent out there that we can never say never to in terms of (infecting) people and domestic livestock.”

 


 

 

P35

 

ADAPTATION OF CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE (CWD) INTO HAMSTERS, EVIDENCE OF A WISCONSIN STRAIN OF CWD

 

Chad Johnson1, Judd Aiken2,3,4 and Debbie McKenzie4,5 1 Department of Comparative Biosciences, University of Wisconsin, Madison WI, USA 53706 2 Department of Agriculture, Food and Nutritional Sciences, 3 Alberta Veterinary Research Institute, 4.Center for Prions and Protein Folding Diseases, 5 Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton AB, Canada T6G 2P5

 

The identification and characterization of prion strains is increasingly important for the diagnosis and biological definition of these infectious pathogens. Although well-established in scrapie and, more recently, in BSE, comparatively little is known about the possibility of prion strains in chronic wasting disease (CWD), a disease affecting free ranging and captive cervids, primarily in North America. We have identified prion protein variants in the white-tailed deer population and demonstrated that Prnp genotype affects the susceptibility/disease progression of white-tailed deer to CWD agent. The existence of cervid prion protein variants raises the likelihood of distinct CWD strains. Small rodent models are a useful means of identifying prion strains. We intracerebrally inoculated hamsters with brain homogenates and phosphotungstate concentrated preparations from CWD positive hunter-harvested (Wisconsin CWD endemic area) and experimentally infected deer of known Prnp genotypes. These transmission studies resulted in clinical presentation in primary passage of concentrated CWD prions. Subclinical infection was established with the other primary passages based on the detection of PrPCWD in the brains of hamsters and the successful disease transmission upon second passage. Second and third passage data, when compared to transmission studies using different CWD inocula (Raymond et al., 2007) indicate that the CWD agent present in the Wisconsin white-tailed deer population is different than the strain(s) present in elk, mule-deer and white-tailed deer from the western United States endemic region.

 


 

 

Sunday, October 13, 2013

 

CJD TSE Prion Disease Cases in Texas by Year, 2003-2012

 


 

 

Saturday, November 2, 2013

 

Recommendation of the Swiss Expert Committee for Biosafety on the classification of activities using prion genes and prion protein January 2013

 


 

 

Saturday, November 16, 2013

 

Management of neurosurgical instruments and patients exposed to creutzfeldt-jakob disease 2013 December

 

Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol.

 


 

 

there is in fact evidence that the potential for cwd transmission to humans exists, and has existed for some time now, and potential CWD transmission to humans and other species can NOT be ruled out. ...

 

 

kind regards, terry

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